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Post by Admin on Dec 30, 2014 16:34:58 GMT
Quote from complementarian site: "The Word of God proclaims, “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent” (1 Timothy 2:11–12).
In the church, God assigns different roles to men and women. This is a result of the way mankind was created and the way in which sin entered the world (1 Timothy 2:13–14). God, through the apostle Paul, restricts women from serving in roles of teaching and/or having spiritual authority over men.
This precludes women from serving as pastors over men, which definitely includes preaching to them, teaching them publicly, and exercising spiritual authority over them."
Comments anyone?
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Post by Relentless on Dec 31, 2014 14:18:10 GMT
They made that all up. Seriously.
The text of Genesis to which Paul refers says nothing about hierarchy between Adam and Eve, but it does say that it's Adam's fault the world is cursed, and that Eve CHOSE to follow Adam out of th Garden. What Paul clearly states in 1 Tim. is that the problem he was addressing was DECEPTION, not inherent faults in all women while ignoring the faults in men. Neither does Paul (or Moses) state that God rewarded Adam for being spineless and blaming God for making Eve, by putting him in charge of her... and by baseless extension, all men over all women for all time.
God did no such thing as assign "roles" on the basis of the flesh. In fact, "in Christ" there is to be no such distinction.
As for "pastors" (a title not found in scripture), they have no authority over other believers. They are like the guards on the walls, and you never see guards running the city. They are to lead by example of humility and knowing the scriptures. So not only can women have the gift of pastoring, men cannot exercise authority, aka "lording over".
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Post by jocelyn andersen on Dec 31, 2014 20:14:31 GMT
As for "pastors" (a title not found in scripture), they have no authority over other believers. They are like the guards on the walls, and you never see guards running the city. They are to lead by example of humility and knowing the scriptures. So not only can women have the gift of pastoring, men cannot exercise authority, aka "lording over". That is an excellent point. Pastors are "shepherds" who care for the needs of the flock. And even ancient patriarchal cultures allowed their daughters as well as their sons to shepherd flocks. We see an example of this in Midian where Moses met his future wife, Zipporah, when she and her sisters were attempting to draw water for their father's flock and some male shepherds, who were not affiliated with their father, tried to drive them away from the well. As far as leaders go, Deborah was a Mother in Israel. She judged Israel as the spiritual and political leader, and after the defeat of Sisera, the land had rest for 40 years under her excellent leadership.
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Post by wanetadawn on Jan 5, 2015 8:12:11 GMT
""The Word of God proclaims, “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent” (1 Timothy 2:11–12)."
Considering that this verse is the total opposite of all the rest of Paul's writings, the explanation that makes the most sense to me is that there is some mistranslation in this passage. The writer was speaking of one specific woman--probably one who had been a leader in a pagan temple and had her info all mixed up.
Speaking of "authority" notice I Tim 3:12. Nothing is said about the husband ruling his wife. On the next page, Paul says he wants widows to marry and rule the house. I Tim 5:14. In most versions I Tim 5:14 is translated incorrectly. I wonder if I Tim 3:12 is translated correctly. Anyone want to check it out? Who is supposed to do the ruling? The deacon or the spouse?
Also, does anyone know what kind of work men did in those days? Did a good number of them have their own businesses that they ran with their wives, similar to what couples did in the USA before the industrial age? Did the household consist of one husband, one wife, and children as households did in the USA in the 1950s, or did grandpa or grandma rule the extended family that lived under one roof, or...?
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Post by ishshahsstory on Jan 21, 2015 5:25:25 GMT
Allow me to have a little fun here and apply this reasoning to another passage of N.T. scripture:
"The Word of God proclaims: 'Bondservants, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in sincerity of heart, as to Christ;'
In the church, God assigns different roles to masters and slaves. This is a result of the way mankind was created. God, through the apostle Paul, commands slaves to be afraid of masters and to tremble in their presence (Eph. 6:5).
This precludes slaves from serving as leaders over masters, which definitely includes preaching to them, teaching them publicly, and exercising spiritual authority over them."
To start any conversation off with "The word of God proclaims...." without taking into account the cultural context and the very Spirit of the Word of God as lived and demonstrated by Christ is arrogant and foolish. The word of God proclaims many things, including "If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple" (Luke 14:26) We do not worship words and phrases as if they are God, we worship a God who is Spirit and who enables us through His Spirit to interpret the meaning of His written word through the character of His Living Word, Christ. That character is Love. No one would be right to hate their parents on the basis of Luke 14.26, because we know the character of Christ is love and we interpret His meaning through that knowledge of Him. (Or do some people think it's OK to hate your parents based on this passage???)
Anyone who truly thinks one half of the human race should forever submit to the other half, even into eternity, because 'the word of God proclaims' without reference to the whole counsel of God's word, does not live in fellowship with Christ, who is always Love. They may believe in Him, but they do not fellowship with Him.
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Post by ishshahsstory on Jan 21, 2015 9:45:03 GMT
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Ian
New Member
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Post by Ian on Feb 27, 2015 18:42:18 GMT
The translation of 1 Tim 2.12 that appears in our Bibles is particularly poor. There is a raging debate amongst academics over the best interpretation of this verse, which hangs on the key word, the Greek verb authentein, and its grammatical relation with the verb to teach. The verb authentein has been translated as 'to have authority' in many contemporary Bible translations, but it did not come to mean this until some three hundred years after Paul penned his letter to Timothy. In fact, it was originally translated as 'to domineer' or 'to dominate', as can be seen from the Old Latin Version (200-400 AD) and The Latin Vulgate (400-500 AD). New Testament scholar Linda Belleville concludes from her studies of the many translations that ‘there is a virtually unbroken tradition, stemming from the oldest version and running down to the twenty first century, that translates authentein as “to dominate” and not “to exercise authority over”.
Paul was actually countering an error that was threatening the Ephesian church that taught that woman was superior to man by virtue of the belief that the first human being was a female goddess, either Artemis or Eve herself, who could bring forth offspring independently of men. Ephesus was the world centre of the cult religion of Artemis, which featured the magnificent Temple of Artemis that was one of the Seven Wonders of the World. Whether the source of the error was directly from this false religion or an early gnostic version of it is unclear, but it would seem that false teaching and female supremacist beliefs were invading the church and causing a great deal of division and dissension, especially with the men.
To complicate matters further, there was a strong social trend sweeping the Roman Empire at the time that is increasingly referred to as 'New Roman Woman' or 'New Roman Wives' by classicists. Rome was a very male dominated society. Men held all the power. They owned the majority of the property, not only their own, but also any that their wife brought into their marriage. Additionally, they controlled all of the finances as well. Culturally, it was common and quite acceptable for married men to have mistresses. Wives had little choice but to put up with it, being entirely dependent on their husbands. However, in 44 BC Roman law changed and the property of women, especially wealthy women, no longer automatically transferred to their husbands’ estate on marriage. They could also divorce their husbands for their adulteries, and so no longer had to put up with abusive or demeaning behaviour. However, these new financial and social freedoms had an unanticipated effect. As a backlash against decades of oppression, the women became every bit as bad as the men in terms of taking lovers and generally behaving promiscuously, dressing very provocatively to attract male interest. But they also became dismissive and contemptuous of the men in social and societal settings. No longer did they defer to them or their husbands, but became overbearing and domineering, often shouting the men down in public debates. This made it very difficult for the gospel teachers to teach them the Truth as they would challenge and interrupt them as they were speaking.
It was these attitudes and behaviours that Paul had to correct. I would suggest a truer (amplified) translation of 1 Timothy 2:11-14 is :
11 Let a woman learn with a peaceable attitude, not arguing or contending with her teachers, but instead having the proper regard for them and submitting to their teaching. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach the domination of man, but to be at peace with them, 13 agreeing that Adam was formed by God first, then Eve, rather than Adam coming from a female goddess. 14 Also Adam was not deceived, but the woman was, and being deceived was clearly not an infallible goddess superior to man, but instead fell into transgression, proving that she was a mortal human being.
Consequently, the passage does not prohibit women from teach or having authority over men; neither does it banish them to silence! The quote above is rooted in misunderstanding and mistranslation of the source scriptures, and sadly leads us to the place where the church is denied the gifting of its women, who incidentally make up two thirds of the church in the UK and US. Pretty tragic really!!
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